Recent Posts in Peacemaking Category

Palm Springs Divorce Recovery Group Begins June, 2012

Marriage Counselor/Divorce Coach, Bev Jewell, is offering another 6 week "Growing Through Divorce™" support group beginning the first week of June. This opportunity is ideal for people who are recently separated, stuck within the divorce process, or who are coping with the aftermath of relationship end months or even years following your breakup. 

As you well know, divorce is a crisis that dramatically alters the foundations of a person's life. "Growing Through Divorce™" helps to create a sense of security, community, support and personal growth so people can get through this stage of confusion and grief and start to productively build their new life. Sharing this experience with others who are similarly situated has immense power and benefits.

The group's focus includes moving through the emotional stages of the divorce process in order to reintegrate and rebalance ourselves;. These stages often involve denial that the divorce is really happening, questioning (bargaining) if one could have done more to prevent the divorce, becoming unstuck in patterns of blame/anger at "the other" for "doing this to them".  These emotions, as well as the deep sense of loss, have to be addressed and dealt with before forgiveness and acceptance can be approximated or achieved. It is also important to understand the roles that partners played in the marriage, the lessons that can be learned, and to feel gratitude for what was good and wonderful, when it was. Without this healing process people often rebound into another relationship, carrying their previous baggage with them, or transfer their distress to their children or others.   

Each group is limited to a maximum of 8 people, in order to create a more personal and intimate dialogue and experience. The workshop is six weeks long. Each session is 90 minutes, The cost is $25 a week per person, and is intended to be affordable.

If this process sounds like it might have value for you, please call Bev Jewell at 760-699-7027 for more information and to reserve your spot in the group! 

Related Websites: www.growingthroughdivorce.com, www.desertdivorcesolutions.com and www.essentialfocus.com  

Website Design, Development and Optimization for

Divorce and Family Law Mediation

DFMS Is Now (Almost) 18 Months Old!

Artwork Courtesy of www.Love-Art.com

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310-948-6408

• The Hon. Gretchen W. Taylor, Judge Retired, CFLS* (Judge Taylor is provided to us through ARC)
• Thurman W. Arnold, III, Esq., Certified Family Law Specialist* 
• Dr. Jane Ellen Shatz
• Karen Horwitz, M.A., M.F.T.
• David Hayes, M.A., M.F.T.

*Let us help get you out of this mess, intact!

I recently attended The International Academy of Collaborative Professionals institute for training collaborative professionals in Phoeniz, Arizona. It was truly inspiring, and I appreciated the opportunity to join with a community of like-minded professionals who share a heartfelt desire to make the dissolution experience healthier and less destructive for children and adults.

As the mental health component assisting in a traditional full-team collaborative case, or as one of two dissolution coaches in a collaborative mediation (or as a co-mediator), my training, experience, and perspectives adds immense value to the team approach for resolving marital conflict. I provide useful tools for a mindful negotiation that focuses not only the best interest of your child, but also the best interests of each party as they move forward into a scary yet exciting new phase of their lives. One area where this is accomplished is in assisting clients to manage their intense emotions and reactivity, responses that are quite natural, in ways that encourage them to communicate and negotiate constructively. This in turn promotes achieving emotional closure.

An important piece of gaining emotional understanding of one's experience during this difficult time is to respect what is happening in the brain. Divorce is felt as an intense crisis and trauma. This sets off the fight or flight reaction, which makes it difficult for the two sides of the brain to work together. Speaking generally the left side of our brains house logic, thinking and objectivity. The right side houses emotion and subjectivity. When our nervous systems go offline due to crisis, trauma, or emotional intensity, the two sides of the brain are unable to communicate and integrate with one another. This can cause a break down of constructive, healthy communication.

Healthy communication includes verbalizing one's experience and needs in a mindful, non-attacking manner, while also being receptive to listening authentically. Not listening or feeling heard is a hallmark of communication gone awry. A mental health coach or a mental health co-mediator facilitates their client moving from this mode into an emotionally safe place. Reducing anxiety is a key to finding solutions. Yet many people think that they must suppress or ignore that tension because it is too uncomfortable to sit with, or they may feel that it is now time to speak out and tell the other partner all the blames that have been percolating as a means to retaking the individuality and dignity that seems to have become lost. While either response is reasonable given what is being experienced, it takes awareness to balance them in ways that can positively impact the road out of emotional turbulence.

At the close of the IACP training we were asked to write a mission statement as a collaborative professional. I wrote "I want to help keep families together as couples part ways." It is possible to maintain the "family" even as it seems to be disintegrating but it is hard to imagine this because we believe that unless the family is 'intact' it is not family. Research has shown that children whose parents divorce, but are able to have an amicable working relationship as a team for their kids, do just as well in the long term as those children whose parents stay together - this is remarkable to me because of the hope that it offers. Families can remain positively connected ever after the legal end of the relationship.

None of us wants a divorce, but divorce happens. Committing to work collaboratively with your spouse or domestic partner is an enlightened approach to resolving conflict, and it is effective for managing the stress of divorce so that it does not get absorbed by kids. This management of stress and conflict is also of immense importance for those without children, and your wellbeing deserves the same attention whether you are a parent or not.

You have alternatives to self-destructing in the throes of your relationship breakup, and I very much want to help you see and use them. These options aren't always apparent to the brain when all one can think about is survival, and your body and mind is reacting and trying to cope with this crisis. I want to help point this out to you, and to show you ways to de-escalate not only the tone of the interactions with your partner but also the stress on your emotional and financial systems. I am not acting as a therapist in that role, but as a facilitator. I don't ever tell you what you should do, but I can offer a resource for helping you to reframe what is happening in ways that may allow the brain to gain the perspective that we all tend to lack in the midst of great emotional challenges, when we are commonly otherwise listening to the repetitive mental tapes of our worries and so become driven by them.

Whether as part of a collaborative team, or as one of two divorce coaches assisting with a collaborative mediation, efficient use of mental health professionals can move individuals and couples beyond toxicity and pain in preparation for a healthy new chapter in their lives. It is an honor for me to have this opportunity. I hope it is something you care to consider.

Karen Horwitz, M.A., M.F.T.
DFMS Co-Mediator and Collaborative Professional

As is to be expected, people in the midst of relationship transition are experiencing a deep range of emotions that include varying levels of personal distress. For some these are manageable when mediation commences, but they may become inflamed by something that is said or felt during the process. For others anger or hurt is always evident as an 'elephant in the room'. Given sufficient provocation and intensity these dynamics can surface and threaten to derail the mediation.

This is particularly true when participants engage in persistent back and forth accusations and recrimination during the sessions. We encounter this with many families to greater or lesser extents, and we hear of it as back stories that erupt as arguments that the parties later report. This is all quite natural - family law cases are underpinned by powerful feelings about any number of subjects, each containing sharp hooks where people can find themselves caught and polarized in an instant.

Similarly, when strong emotions are used to justify and link to self-serving concepts of 'fairness entitlements' or to purely 'legal rights', threads that might lead to potential mutual interests and joint benefit win-win situations seem to fray or become knotted. Parties may begin to lose hope.

The impulse can be to end mediation, believing that Family Court is now the only way to end the dance. This may or may not be true for your matter. Mediation does require that both parties be willing to work together at pivotal junctures, and one party alone cannot do all the heavy lifting. But we hope that you not resort to litigation just because passions repeatedly challenge you (and the mediator) - after all, this tension may have been one reason you decided to mediate in the first place and is not news. Years working with families within the adversary system have demonstrated for us that people suffer immensely by adopting that course. Moreover, we have found that stubborn patience pays dividends and that cases that seemed impossible have ended well. When confronted during mediation by the other person's deep anger or you own, we urge you to stay the course.

By looking at what underlies intense negative feelings we all can be helped to better understand how resentment ripens into judgments that interrupt or render impossible the openness required for crafting workable resolutions. It is possible to "out" these judgments in ways that help to diminish the otherwise co-optive power they can assume over wise and sensitive decision-making.

We acknowledge that this can be a daunting task. The idea of investigating the reasons why we feel and what (pain?) we feel can be really frightening. It can sound like a replay of what is bringing the relationship to an end, of which you've had enough. It could also become another place to swirl and twist, and so it requires that the subject be approached with earnestness and integrity. For this is the rub: If parties to mediation remain fixed within an overriding anger, or the hurt that underwrites it, they are not likely to move on with their lives (or to achieve a settlement) in any satisfactory or healthy way. Each party's willingness to investigate what is transpiring a little more deeply may be a key that unlocks the door to an improved level of freedom for both. Together we can try to work through to it.

Partly because of these recognitions, DFMS mediators Thurman Arnold and Retired Judge Gretchen Taylor spent the past six days training with a small and passionate group of professional mediators under the supervision of Gary F. Friedman, Jack Himmelstein, and Norman Fischer. These gentlemen comprise the "The Center for Understanding in Conflict & The Center for Mediation in Law", based in Mill Valley and New York City. Gary is a peacemaking trainer, lawyer, and mediator based in Northern California. Jack is a conflict theorist and former law professor at the Columbia University Law School and lives in New York. Norman is an author and former Zen abbot who teaches mindfulness practices. This group is developing useful techniques for becoming unstuck when strong emotions threaten to overwhelm the parties' mediation.

Of particular focus was the high conflict divorce, and how it challenges mediators too. The parties' emotions can strike chords within us, and so our goal in undertaking this training is to better connect in an authentic way with our mediation participants and their experiences, and ourselves. We aim to improve our skillfulness in moving parties forward to successful outcomes even when cases become quite bitter, and found the workshop offered useful tools for helping maintain focus and for investigating how feelings can become destructive to the process. The parties' options and choices can be expanded and redirected in positive ways if we can sit and be present with what is distracting us.

Emotions need not be directly addressed in every mediation. Very strong negative feelings are rarely fatal to the endeavor. But if either party's experience includes dynamics that cause blockages to resolving their dispute, if permitted to do so mediators can guide the participants to better recognize what is occurring inside and between them, and so keep the process on track.

If this topic applies to your relationship transition, the three of us might benefit by openly discussing and exploring it early on.

Mediation is a difficult and beautiful dance. People arrive with deeply held and heartfelt concerns, and they will continue to hold these core values no matter what occurs. It is not for the mediator or the other party to try to change these core values, and that wouldn't succeed anyway. Mediators can facilitate cooperative insights that benefit both parties mutually, but they do not impose them. Openness is the parties' joint responsibility and a journey that they must undertake together if the process is to succeed.

People also arrive with settlement expectations, and while these may relate to core values, these are not the same thing and ought not be transposed. Expectations are entirely reasonable, but expectations can make people stuck - and mediation is designed to help couples become "unstuck." Fear of some perceived adverse outcome often underlies these expectations.

While mediation is an opportunity belonging to the participants, and the mediator is present to assist in actualizing dialogues that may lead to conflict resolution, mediators have a responsibility to maintain civility, dignity, and boundaries during the process. Mediation is not "anything goes" or "I should be able to say whatever I feel is important" especially if the other party might feel extremely unsettled by such statements. Themes of blame and shame often underlie such statements, and while these must be recognized they cannot be used as cudgels. It is the mediator's goal to assist equanimity.

I attempt to make this clear in our Orientation Session.  For instance, the  Mediation Agreement I ask you to sign contains the following language:

"The mediator will attempt to resolve any outstanding disputes among the parties as long as both parties make a good-faith effort to reach an agreement to both parties. Parties must be willing and able to participate in the process. The mediation agreement requires compromise, and the parties agree to attempt to be flexible and open to new possibilities for a resolution for their disputes. If the mediator, in his or her professional judgment, concludes that agreement is not possible or that continuation of the mediation process would harm or prejudice any of the participants, the mediation shall withdraw and the mediation conclude."

"Harm or prejudice" includes speech, conduct, behavior, threats of litigation, power-plays, or an insistence that the mediation process only validate one party's core beliefs or agendas where one or both parties are unwilling or unable to permit the other to have a different view. Different views are discussed and even to be encouraged, but that is not the same thing as saying "you must accept my views or else." I find that if people hang in with the process (one that they can always leave later since litigation remains available as a final resort), an unspoken attitude of "or else" may soften and dissipate as more information comes to light. The actual divorce or domestic partnership settlement usually ends of looking and feeling different that what was expected or feared.

Mediation unfolds in real time. It requires skill to manage the mediation exchange between the parties, but artistry or the passion of any mediator towards resolution won't guarantee that mediation between some conflicted spouses will succeed. At DFMS, we believe that our responsibility includes anticipating and reframing what is said in the mediation room. We may sometimes inquire as to what point is intended to be expressed. This is not to be disrespectful, but instead to protect the integrity and safety of the process itself, for each party.

Mediation disputants have to be willing to permit and even help the mediator to help them, understanding that the mediator provides no magic wand and relies upon the parties' own desire for resolution. Without a joint and separate commitment to the goals of mediation, when core values, expectations and fear collide with resolution possibilities the mediation may fail. We cannot give you guarantees. We do offer unconditional commitment to you and your family, nonetheless.

The dialogue between the parties must be one that they are both comfortable in engaging in. This is because mediation is a voluntary process.  Mediation cannot occur or continue without the other's consent. It certainly doesn't force agreement.

In contrast litigation allows either party to say whatever they wish to say, at least in declaration form if not when the process is occurring in open court and Judges are sustaining objections. Mediation requires more, and patience. This is because although in litigation while one side might have a say limited by Evidence Code rules of relevancy, in mediation there are two sides that must be supported at the same instant - equally if the process is to have integrity for both. Otherwise it becomes argument. 

There are times in mediation when one or both parties can't say what they might want to say, and we honor your frustration if this occurs. But mediation is not a platform for either party to launch into their unresolved sense of the relationship difficulties - that discussion is what brings you to us, and it probably hasn't worked thus far. Mediation is not therapy. The mediator's role is not to debate questions or issues with either party, but to try to provide the best environment for positive and respectful dialogue and problem solving, as well as legal expertise about family law issues. Some parties are more appropriately placed with litigating attorneys who can serve as their warriors, or in representing themselves, if that is their desire. 

Adversary litigation is not our wish for you, but sometimes it is the only open course. Mediation is not for every one.

There is a funny bit of nonfiction that has been making its rounds through internet emails. I think it illustrates a scientific basis why mediation may make sense for people who are unwinding their marriages, domestic partnerships, and other intimate relationships. It goes like this:

Do you know why railroad tracks in this country are exactly 4 feet, 8.5 inches apart? After all, this distance seems to be arbitrary number.

It is because that is the way railroad tracks were built in England, and English transplants helped design them in the United States.

But why were they fixed at this distance in England?

Because the tramways that preceded rail lines in England and Europe were designed by the same people who built the trams. They used the same tools and jigs that had previously been used for building horse drawn wagons, which had the same wheel spacing as the trams came to have. 

But why this wheel spacing? Because the roads that were many hundreds of years old were fixed at that spacing, and to use any other size would have destroyed the precious wagon wheels. The roads had become deeply rutted from centuries of use.

And why were the ruts grooved at this distance? Because the roads were first built by the Romans for their legions, and in particular their war chariots. These chariots that formed the initial ruts, which everyone thereafter had to match in order to not destroy their valuable wooden wheels, were spaced at 4 feet, 8.5 inches.

Roman war chariots were made just wide enough to allow the rear ends of two horses to which the chariots were harnessed. Yes, our railroad lines today are spaced exactly to accommodate two horse's asses.

This is a wonderful metaphor. We actually wear tracks into the neural architecture of our brains by how we respond to stimuli, and after awhile it may seem impossible to break free of the ruts. Neuroscience and brain scan imaging is developing evidence that has vast implications for the consequences of how we manage conflict, particularly in relationships that are ending. 

For instance, we now know that after birth the greatest developmental spurts for the brain occur when children or 3-5 and again between 10-13 years of age. Neurons - cells and the synapses that connect them - are being grown in younger adults in exponential leaps. What impacts might a contentious divorce have upon these developing organs? 

By the mid-twenties our brains contain more than four quadrillion neurons and synapses. They fire together in amazingly complex arrays. This ability of our brains to wire has made us successful since we could not have survived as a species if we could not cope with threats or meet complex biological and social needs. But a price we pay is that this hardwiring can be resistant to change, and even maladaptive. A "conditioning" develops that tends to energize and determine our thinking, emotions, attitude and behavior - particularly when we are not paying direct attention to it.  

Neurons that fire together, wire together. Just as with war chariot wheels racing across the same terrain again and again, as these combinations continue to fire in repetitive ways we follow the same ground. This looks like driving a car through previously unbroken fields of wheat.  If the vehicle is driven again and again over the same path, a ditch wears in. Most of us have gotten our wheels caught in a ditch - it becomes difficult to steer our way out. 

Our response patterns to conflict can cause 'furrows' to form in our brains that cause us to interact in ways that can seem impossible to escape. Our reactions to conflict, or our willingness to become locked within it, is in a very real sense a habit of the brain that has developed over time. Many of us have felt quite helpless in the face of some of our reactions, during and after the fact.

Fortunately, the cells and neurons that make up our brains are not static. Even as we continue to age our brains remain highly adaptable. There is growing evidence that changing the way we habitually respond to stress or conflict can cause neurons to begin to rewire differently. This is termed "neuroplasticity". It allows a possibility for different experiences and set of outcomes than those we supposed to be our fate or the only choice. We can engage in behaviors that themselves help to develop neural pathways that offer better and happier alternatives to other more familiar ones - neurobiologists liken this to the "pruning" we all know as amateur gardeners. 

I am not suggesting we take our brains to Gold's Mind Gym and sculpt them like we might our muscles,... yet. Those places don't exist today, but they will within a generation or two. I am making the point that there is a biological basis for understanding how we become conditioned in any number of ways, including how we become rooted in conflicted styles of interacting under the stress of divorce or separation. 

Given the capacity of our brains to rewire, and our amazing abilities to adapt once we develop an awareness of the outlines of any challenge, like overcoming patterned behaviors, I believe that mediation and mediated processes offer family law disputants an environment for safely exploring creative new solutions to old problems. When we become willing to consider how our own reactivity tends to keep us recycling, and that sometimes our response to anxiety producing circumstances are almost unconscious, we are suddenly freed to look deeply at how we might honor and protect our own interests while honoring the views of our former partners. This is a beginning for finding the common ground that always exists, but so often seems hidden, for parties who are uncoupling. It has its practical expression in dividing property, fixing support, supporting independence, and in nurturing and sharing children.

As a family law litigator for 30 years, my experience has been that when people are assisted in developing options that are more visionary and mutual than what Courts impose, the process costs them less, they are more satisfied, they reach agreements that are lasting, and that they can positively influence those around them and especially those who depend upon them for emotional and financial support. And, they feel better and begin to view their lives more positively. 

Which is a good way to support a useful rewiring of our brains. 

One reason why people become "stuck" is that they develop patterns of dealing with conflict, over time, with their spouses, domestic partners, employers, children, inlaws, and just about everybody else. We respond in repetitive types of ways. These can be likened to unconscious "strategies" in the sense that we rarely make a decision to employ one pattern or another. The patterns can become conditioned over time, and may become a part of how we have structured our personalities. They may or may not be the same pattern in dealing with every person, or the same pattern that will arise every time, but patterns do develop. Very often the conflict patterns of other people trigger our own in specific and even predictable ways.

If you are considering mediating your family law matter, it may be helpful for you to reflect on your conflict interaction patterns. One important reason why is that conflict patterns provide a strong argument in favor of using mediation instead of some other dispute resolution method like the Courts, violence as an extreme example, or just plain arguing or disruptive conduct (yes, each of those can be a strategy for overcoming conflict). 

At DFMS we suggest that some form of peacemaking is the only approach that resolves disputes - the others just impose outcomes and call it a "result" or perhaps a "consequence."

In general terms there are three primary patterns that persons in conflict employ or express as a coping mechanism: Accommodation, Avoidance, and Control. They manifest in behaviors and speech, or the seeming absence thereof. They tend to look like this. Do any seem to fit your style of dealing with conflict more than others?

Accommodation

• Giving in
• Playing the victim
• Attempting to pacify the other
• Deference to the law
• Deference to the mediator
• Emphasis on sense of personal inadequacy
• Wanting peace at any price
• Failing to assert one's own needs

Avoidance

• Refusing to participate in mediation, litigation, or even conflict itself
• Avoidance of differences
• Indecision
• Withdrawing behaviors (refusing to engage and isolation)
• Going off on tangents
• Being overwhelmed by complexity
• Difficulties processing information
• Wanting it over at any cost

Control

• Dominating the other party or the process
• Seeing only one's own interest
• Rigid positions and outlooks
• Blaming behaviors
• Shaming behaviors
• Threatening behaviors
• Inability/unwillingness to view situations in different ways
• Acting in ingratiating ways towards the other party or the mediator

• The avoider avoids, and his or her interests are not protected
• The accommodator accommodates, and so sacrifices his or her interests
• The controller controls, tramples the interests of others, and their own as well

Mediation holds the promise that these patterns, including the triggers that the cause them, can be understood and real choices can be restored that are much healthier for all concerned.

We are pleased to announce that Mediate.com, the largest information source for all types of mediation in the country, has recently published an article by Thurman W. Arnold entitled "The Peacemaking Option for Divorce and Dissolution of Domestic Partnerships:  How Family Scientists Support Interest Based Conciliation and What That Means for Separating Couples". 

Excepts:

"Family scientists have gathered considerable information that suggests that peacemaking solutions to divorce and breakup might offer a brave new option for people transitioning out of relationship. Peacemaking offers a “controlled” alternative to the chaos of adversarial struggle. While peacemaking lawyers are not therapists, the process that peacemaking facilitates is itself entirely therapeutic because it allows both parties to concentrate on their felt interests and the interests of their families. It a 'controlled process,' managed by the parties themselves and orchestrated by a peacemaker."

"Adversarial divorce does have devastating consequences for children, but peacemaking divorce possibly need not have. Social scientists have learned that parents who divorce are subject to “inter-generational transmission,” an increased likelihood that divorce will happen to them too. For instance, researchers have found that parental divorce increases the chances of a daughter’s marriage ending within the first five years by as much as 70%. Incredibly, if both the husband’s and the wife’s parents have been divorced, these odds increase by 189%. This has the effect that for children’s marriages to be successful such children of divorce may need to consciously guard against behaviors that might undermine their marriages. How parents model divorce for these children has lasting implications for their children’s success in doing so. Understanding this common reality is transformative for the next generation."

The conflict that is inherent in divorce and custody contests is frequently related to distrust over how to cooperatively co-parent children.Challenges such as finance and asset division are also often topics of angry contention. Suspicions that parties aren't being transparent or forthcoming often underlie them. When this occurs, negotiations can become problematic and heated because they become imbued with meaning and feelings beyond the scope of the topic, particularly where a person’s feelings become too big and intense for them to be able to manage and express productively. In the mental health field we refer to this as “affect regulation,” which means that the difficulty in moderating emotions and their expressions in what is said and done can be a primary factor in impeding the resolution of high conflict disputes.  

Historically, emotionally conflicted cases were managed through the court’s inherent authoritative power.Yet, solving the dispute of tangible assets without resolving the underlying negative emotions and animosity among the participants is often a half-measure that invites the perpetuation of this conflict. Increasingly, the courts and child advocates have come to realize the costs and dangers in letting these emotional conflicts persist. Prolonged and antagonistic legal battles may provide a form of settlement or judgment that defines people's economic relationships (often coercively), but with the consequence of emotionally damaged parents and children. That does not offer finality, but the reverse and it tends to be short-lived.

This is one of the many destructive attributes of our adversarial legal system:It treats people by reordering the external parts of their experience, and ignores what is happening inside of them.

When emotions become charged, the parts of our brain that we rely upon for clear judgment and thinking shut down and go offline. We call this the “reptile” brain.   Naturally, then, we react aggressively and intensely and with little ability to filter our thoughts, speech and behaviors. 

The role of a licensed psychotherapist as a therapeutic co-mediator is to educate and support parties to learn or reclaim the ability to interact constructively – and certainly without a continuing cycle of distrust and abuse. As long as one partner behaves provocatively the other finds it hard not to respond in kind. By focusing on emotional reactivity and a spouse’s perception of threat, loss, and hurt, we re-establish empathy to the “aggrieved” partner(s), helping each to regulate their emotions back to more manageable levels. What a relief this can be for people who are suffering huge relational anxiety! The meanings beneath the tangible issues being negotiated are heard and incorporated into the dialogue as we model a productive way to communicate differently about difficult earlier situations. We map out strategies for how to handle similar situations when they unavoidably arise again in the future. The benefits of such a model are felt and seen in a reduction in traumatic experience for children as well as the parents. Anxiety diminishes. Trust and sanity returns. New opportunities arise.

Likewise, undue court time and unfortunate legal expense can be reduced.  Indeed, court can be avoided almost altogether. This means you are directing your life, not some stranger to your family.

Elizabeth, the fact that you are asking these questions tells me you are on the right track. Who knows where it might lead? Perhaps in a direction of wellness, however things sort out?